Garden Plumbing Question - Wet Play - Pumps / Pipes / Systems Etc

[marksman]

Good Afternoon All,

I couldn't find a section dedicated to garden plumbing so hopefully this will be ok here.

Im looking to create a "wet play" system for the kids which will involve several water endpoints which will spray arcs of water of sprays, whatever I want to add really, anyway that's the easy bit.

So the question(s) really revolve round pump / pipes / tubes / connectors & solenoids.

I originally thought several 12V pumps for each endpoint but I figured they wont be anywhere near powerful enough.

My current plan is something like this, its just something in my mind really so far, not pin pointed exact parts etc :

Water tank with auto level replenishment > either a submerged pump or an output to an external pump > 1" pipe connected to 1/2" 12v solenoids > pipes to endpoints.

I'm thinking a pressure gauge on the 1" pipe feeding the solenoids to monitor pressures.

Not sure if I should include a pressure valve to feed back to the tank if no solenoids are open or an electric system with another solenoid to open when all endpoints are closed to ensure pressure dosnt build up as I assume this could damage the pump? Unless they have some sort of automatic cut off.

So the main questions :

Submerged 750w - 1000w odd pump or ??? external pump? Which would be better if any?
Found a good looking 1/2hp external pump on ebay for £30 odd but it said 35L/m where as the 1000w submerged appear to be 208L/m odd, not sure why there is such a large difference?

Solenoid back flow or some sort of pressure valve? Baring in mind we want as much pressure as possible to shoot water up in the air / in large arcs across the garden.

Any thoughts on sizing of pipe / distances etc I should be aware of?

Thoughts on solenoid control?

Any other thoughts / advise?

Budget is about £75 for parts, which seems to be about right going by my parts list so far, possible more like £100 once I have researched the best way to control the solenoid timings for patterns etc.

Hopefully that is enough info to go on if you would like to know anything else please just let me know.

Regards,

Aidan

 

[zzzjim]

Sounds like fun , but that usually means breaking regs !

( Was Disapointed Lady Di's water feature got shut down HSE .. )

Chlorinated water needs maintaining much like a swimming pool

 

[marksman]

Ummm it's only for use at home with fresh water, my wife's a child minder so it's also for her to use for them too, another USP for her.

 

[rpm]

Those £50 1000w pumps on fleabay are not designed for continuous use Aidan and you need think about the discharge pressure as well as the flow rate.
I did the fountain pumps at Kew gardens and Legoland and they are running off multi-stage booster pumps. The one at Kew is simple because it is the middle of the lake as is one of the two at Legoland but the second one there where the kids can run around underneath the spray jets has a filteration system and tank under the ground.

 

[marksman]

Yeah, usage wise we are only talking for a couple of hours a few times a month in summer so that shouldn't be too much of a problem?

Pressure and flow rate are something I would need guidance on.

i assume your Lego land one is sort of what I'm basing the concept on, just remember this is a garden and not a commercial setting with long duty cycles!

 

[jase158]

so for my idea you would need 2 x pumps, each set with some sort of programmer, that can be timed for a few seconds,
so u can have 2 rows both going at the same time!!
I don't think you need 35/L min that is massive.
I would have 2 x pumps connected to seperate feeds from the tank, from 22 to where you want it, then reduced to 15mm or even 10mm.
If you are just doing it in the garden, is manual on/ off an option??

But you are looking at £400-£500 even if you get it all off ebay!!
Including copper and pump/ tank etc
Where abouts are you, someone on here might take it on as a hobby!!

The size of the pump is what I don't know but I wouldn't go too big

 

[marksman]

Ummm, from what I have been reading the little 35l/min is suggested to be a bit under powered.

For reference ive been looking at a 500w version of this :
Enter this in ebay search - 400668290609 (Forum won't let me post a link for some reason)

I want to have the ability to have one shoot into the air for the "ohhhh" as well as the kid level arcs for splashing around with etc.

The above also has things like auto cut off for water level etc.

Do you think this would be ok?

One of those in a sizeable tank feeding the various end points with solenoid controls and some way to manage overflow pressure?

That being the case I thought I could do it for £100< depending on the solenoid controls.

I have a large water butt doing nothing in the garden which I think will make an ideal tank.

Im in Glos, J9 M5.

Regards,

Aidan

 

[jase158]

but if you reduce to 10mm you will get higher flow rates if that makes sense!!

 

[Chalked]

Nice idea, and I'm sure the kids will love it.
but.....
That pump will make good volume, but no head/ pressure.
even if you just put it onto some sort of spray, it will empty your water butt in 1 minute!

 

[Reg Man]

Controversial with water regulations in the UK. Erroneous use springs to mind. an properly designed system which collects the waste water, filters it and puts it back into the system; much like a swimming pool. Obviously chlorinated and separated from the mains water supply.

 

[solutions]

Could you use an accumulater and a small pump to pressurise. Then use the solenoids to release the stored pressure in short bursts. If you had 2 you could design the sequence so while one set is firing the pump is recharging the second accumulater. I have no idea if this would work as have not tried it but I cant see why not.

 

[marksman]

Chalked :

I wondered this but remember these things go in ponds and it has to push the stream through up to 5m of water before the surface then another 4-6m up in the air so there must be some "umph" coming out of the thing to do that?

So then once you add pipework & reducing size pipes etc it should be more than enough to make the jets?

I'm thinking 6 outputs + overflow.

I figured a pump which is going to have large volume will do the job if using gradually smaller pipework as suggested to increase pressure.

If not what other motor should I be considering? The nice things about the submersible ones is the auto cut off for lack of water, handle grit etc.

To address the high water consumption issue I think its important to regulate the pressure, we need something for the overflow port back to the butt so when pressure is above X (configurable) Y% of the water will be returned to the butt, add to this there will be a float switch being filled by by the mains it should be ok?

Reg Man :

I am no hippie so I cant say this concerns me too much, BUT that said I can add a rainwater collection system.

I must also stress this system would only be used in the summer, for maybe an hour at a time if that and maybe only a hand full of times in the summer months.

It wouldn't be used if there was a hose pipe ban in effect.

It would be no different than cleaning your patio, washing your car, using sprinkler systems on larger gardens etc, just my use will be a lot more fun!

I agree with you, If I was rich I would do all that, great idea and good for keeping levels but this is a circa £100 project and as above wont really be used THAT much so it dost warrant it.

Im looking for used ebay pumps, recycling an old water butt etc, its just some fun for the kids and some fun for me making it!

Solutions :

Im not exactly sure what you mean, 2 butts and 2 little pumps? My issue is lack of pressure / water height, im wanting to have maybe 3-4 solenoids open at one point so its going to need some decent pressure to supply those and maintain nice tall water arc`s and sprays etc.

 

[rpm]

I realised you didn`t want a fountain but the point was they all have multi-stage pumps to create the pressure required even the legoland one where the kids run around under the jet sprays and that one only has around 10 nozzles with each spray of water only being around 4 - 5ft high!

You also seem to misunderstand the term continuous use with £50 sump pump and Chalked is correct regarding the amount of water in a water butt that will be used in minutes, jase`s idea of reducing the pipe bore will work but go too small and the motor will quickly struggle due to the pressure on the impeller and reg man is also correct regarding being responsible and having a collection system after all it only takes one neighbour to drop you in the mire and you will be big trouble.

Solutions has put forward a good idea for a pressurised system which I think you ought to look in to but I cant see the whole thing being done properly for your budget and any head pressure quoted with pumps is from the surface on which the pump sits on with the water discharging through a pipe so I`m at a loss to understand the 5m below & 4 - 6m above the water giving you a large water arc`s and sprays plus whatever you plan to add all from one £50 pump.

 

[marksman]

Ok, I see what you mean but I get the impression that some are still thinking this is larger than it is.
I'm talking 6 outlets for water for short distances around a small garden.

Im not sure what im misunderstanding duty cycle wise, if a pump has a 24 hour duty cycle it can run for 24 hours, if its has a 4 hour duty cycle it can run for 4 hours then it will need a cooling down period etc.

Can solutions explain the "pressure accumulator" system further, im not understanding it fully.

Pump wise these things are designed for fountains as you know, my logic is that connecting this into my pipework system will generate the same sort of power spread over my 6 outlet ports, only 2 -3 open at any one time.

I haven't had any other recommendations for pumps as of yet whilst maintaining the same design theory, open to all suggestions. Bigger pumps? What rating? etc

Nothings set in stone, its an evolving plan.

Neighbor im not sure what the issue would be, as I say you wouldn't complain if someone was washing their car, cleaning their patio with pressure washers etc.

 

[zzzjim]

Fiddling around with flow and pressure , bare this in mind cos , innards of a 2nd hand submersible pump let go

when I caused too much pressure - from too little flow thru system !

" Just seeing what it was capable of "

( hence mention of 2 stage if want IMPRESSIVE ... and gone when wind blows )

 

[marksman]

Ok, so you have done something similar Jim and your pump blew?

I think with these pumps its vital to make sure the water always has somewhere to go, some sort of pressure relief valve.

When people are talking about "2 stage" what is this exactly? Just 2 pumps? In what configuration? Or?

As above open to alternative pump suggestions that handle more pressure.

Regards,

Aidan

 

[marksman]

Sorry, had a Google, multistage pumps are multi impella pumps, not a huge amount of those on eBay! Possibly not getting one of those for circa £50<.

Making these cheaper pumps would be nice, I'll keep on the look out for some used multistage, anything particular I should be looking for?

Regards,

Aidan

 

[rpm]

Grundfos, Lowara, Dab pumps are all good pumps. Will look up model numbers and post in next day or two. You could send a PM to Mike Jackson asking him to take a look at this thread as he is very good on pumps.

 

[zzzjim]

My Submersible was made of plastic and held together with self tapping screws , Just messing with it created enough force to pull screws from holes .

Maximum pressure - is related to Maximum Head in meters in spec ! (6m on some)

( My project more rain water - irrigation , so keeping water extra clean not a problem )

 

[Reg Man]

I'm no eco warrior, just highlighting the water regulations. Start with compliance before wish list or it will all go wrong.

 

[solutions]

Accumulators are large expsnsion vessels basicly a bit like capacitors for the water/pressure world. They are used with a pump to increase pressure. The pump forces water in to the accumulater under pressure which it can then release when a draw off is opened. As I understand it you can get greater pressure from an accumulater than the pump that charges it could achieve on its own. The pump also only runs to charge the accumulater. I hope this is relatively clear and is of some help. I am a little confused as to why you need a pump it would seem to me that what you are trying to achieve could be done from the mains if as you say it is a small garden. Unless of course you have poor mains pressure.

 

[Reg Man]

Good description of accumulators, but for the proposed application?

 

[marksman]

Thanks solutions, that make sense, although I would of though a pump to handle the pressure of pumping into such system would just be usable on its own?

You are correct, water pressure here is not great by any means.
Having said that I will test it out, I have a mains pipe coming off the inbound mains we have ran in the concrete so ill at least have the most pressure it has to offer available.

Ill see what happens with that but am fully expecting it to need some pump based help.

Regards,

Aidan

 

[solutions]

Good description of accumulators, but for the proposed application?

Your right I dont think it makes sense in this application. I was just trying to think of ways around using bigger more expensive pumps and having a way that would not require the pumps to run continuously. However given one of the primary objectives is to keep cost down swapping big pumps for accumulater doesnt really work as they are equally expensive.
I would expect mains pressure to be at least 1 bar and possibly higher as a static pressure which for once would actually be useable, as if you are only going to fire short slugs of water then you will always have use of the full 1 bar where as if it was constantly running it might drop off due to restrictions caused by pipe size over its length to outlet if constantly flowing.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i would also checkout with the childminding side whether a home built system would be considered safe i know friends had to radically change there gardens before being allowed to let children use it

 

[Reg Man]

i would also checkout with the childminding side whether a home built system would be considered safe i know friends had to radically change there gardens before being allowed to let children use it

Didn't think of this, Probably need a life guard too LOL. I would be Phoning your local water company first, to check approval with them first. I think this is a lovely idea though.

 

[marksman]

Thanks all.

We are redoing the whole garden at the moment, concreting it all.
I don't think they mind too much as long as you dont have a pond etc.

If i can get away with mains pressure it will be a lot easier, if I have to use pumps etc ill get it electrically signed off first.

Just 12v solenoids I don't think can do too much damage, they will be housed in the shed anyway.

Regards,

Aidan

 

[marksman]

Good Morning Chaps,

Sadly after some testing this isn't going to work with mains pressure.

It shoots out reasonably far from a washing machine 3/4" pipe but once you add some pipe and a solenoid there is just no pressure there, it just comes out the end as a fairly weak stream.

Tap > House > speedfit adapter > 15mm speedfit > solenoid > 15mm speedfit

So I think im going to need some slightly different solenoids and a decent multi stage pump, pref adjustable and self cutoff adjustable pressure system.

So, thoughts gentlemen?

Regards,

Aidan